​Welcome to season 2!  We are finally back in action, and no better way to kick it off then with an incredible interview with author Dan Flores. In this episode, I speak to Dan about his most recent book 'Wild New World: The Epic Story of Animals and People in America'. The conversation covers the sweeping, emotional narratives within the book that highlight the historical interactions between humans and animals in North America. Dan discusses his inspiration, the challenges of condensing 65 million years of history into a readable narrative, and how living in natural settings influences his writing. We touch upon significant topics like extinction events, the evolution of American wildlife, and the role of literature in shaping our understanding of nature. The episode also delves into Flores' perspective on conservation efforts, the cultural impact of recognizing human roles in extinction, and an intriguing discussion about the revival of ancient species through genetic engineering.

00:00 Introduction to 'Wild New World'
02:31 Author's Background and Writing Environment
06:21 Inception and Scope of the Book
11:13 Challenges in Writing 'Wild New World'
17:01 The Epic Timeline of North American Wildlife
24:42 Human Presence and Extinctions in North America
34:52 Reflecting on Changing Attitudes Towards Extinction
35:13 The Myth of a Perfect World
37:59 Confronting Extinction: The Great Auk
39:00 Human Impact on Global Extinctions
40:42 America's Unique Wilderness and Conservation Efforts
41:52 The Role of Science in Conservation
44:17 The Endangered Species Act and Political Unity
45:32 Nature as Common Ground in a Divided World
48:11 The Fascination with Extinct Animals
49:17 The Science of De-Extinction
54:46 Influential Books on Nature and Conservation
01:00:34 Personal Stories and Future Projects
01:04:01 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Full Transcript Here

Also See 

• More books by Dan Flores
• Colossal Biosciences (Company Website)
• American West (podcast)
  
• Book Science Book Shop

Full Transcript Here.
We’ve reached the end of Season One of Book Science! In this closing reflection, I look back on the challenges, the guests who made the season possible, and the growth—both personal and creative—that came from finally putting this project into the world.

From my very first conversation with Duane Hamacher to laughing it up with Scott Huler in Episode 8, this season has been full of experiments, stumbles, and a whole lot of learning.
Along the way, we explored:

• Episode 1: Duane Hamacher – The First Astronomer
• Episode 2: The Power of the Sea by Bruce Parker (solo)
• Episode 3: Tessa Hill & Eric Simons – At Every Depth
• Episode 4: Firmament by Simon Clark (solo)
• Episode 5: Lynne Kelly – The Knowledge Gene &n others
• Episode 6: Helen Czerski – Blue Machine & Storm in a Teacup
• Episode 7: Waves and Beaches by Willard Bascom and Kim McCoy (deep dive)
• Episode 8: Scott Huler – Defining the Wind & Delicious Country

I’m deeply grateful to every guest who took a chance on this unknown show, and to everyone who has listened. Thank you for being part of this first season. With your support, this small but mighty club of science book aficionados will only keep growing. See you in Season Two.

Looking Ahead: Season Two launches this October! Guests include Carl Zimmer (Airborne), Dan Flores (Wild New World), Laura Poppick (Strata), Rebecca Lexa (Everyday Naturalist), Kevin Walsh (Planets of the Known Galaxy), Sönke Johnsen (Into the Great Wide Ocean), and Chelsea Wood (Power to the Parasites).

Links & Extras

• Website: TrippCollins.com
• Show notes & transcripts: https://www.trippcollins.com/episodes
• Instagram: @booksciencepodcast
• Patreon (support the show): patreon.com/bookscience
• BookShop.org Book Science Season 1 Collection

Author Websites

• Scott Huler
• Helen Czerski
• Tessa Hill
• Eric Simons
• Duane Hamacher
• Lynne Kelly
• Simon Clark
• Bruce Parker​

20:00–30:00

• Scott explains how he moved from journalism into book writing via feature stories.
• The Beaufort book was initially rejected by his agent.
• During a period of isolation, he applied for a fellowship to revisit the idea.
• New agents became interested, and the proposal gained traction.
• A fellowship and book deal gave him the resources to pursue the project fully.

30:00–40:00

• Scott describes the transformative year spent at a fellowship in Ann Arbor, fully immersed in writing without distractions.
• He contrasts the depth and time required for books versus articles—books must offer beauty, complexity, and multiple angles.
• Compares the form of a book to natural units of human understanding, like a Beethoven symphony on a CD.
• Praises the physical book as a “perfect technology”—interactive, durable, portable, and deeply familiar.
• Emphasizes his lifelong love of books, recalling his identity as a bookish kid.

40:00–50:00

• Scott says writing should be fun—even with serious topics, he wants readers to enjoy the experience.
• He’s drawn to science because it’s structured, cumulative, and leads to results.
• Describes science as “beautiful, magical, and understandable”—it enables modern life.
• Reflects on the evolution of scientific understanding, from Newton to Einstein to quantum physics.
• Criticizes science denialism (e.g., about climate change) as a refusal to engage with objective reality.

50:00–60:00

• Scott shares the emotional experience of tracking down historical records tied to the Beaufort scale.
• He visited the UK Met Office and saw handwritten observations but never found a full personal archive.
• A choreographer created a dance piece based on his book—he read the Beaufort scale aloud during the performance.
• Readers have created their own Beaufort scales (e.g., for laundry or in prison), which deeply moves him.
• He compares the spread of these creative responses to having kids—his ideas continue without him.

60:00–70:00

• Scott recounts paddling Lawson’s route and realizing Lawson likely wasn’t paddling himself—he was being guided.
• Emphasizes that Lawson’s journey relied entirely on Native American guides and established paths.
• Notes that Lawson was unusually aware that he was witnessing the decline of Native cultures, not their peak.
• Highlights Lawson’s respectful, detailed descriptions of Native life—plants, food, rituals, and more.
• Praises Lawson’s empathy and commitment to documenting what he saw with care and honesty.

70:00–80:00

• A Native American woman told Scott that reading Lawson in college was life-changing—“he gave me my history.”
• She introduced Scott to her tribe’s land and longhouse, the first their people had owned in a century.
• Encounters like this reaffirmed his commitment to the work, regardless of book sales.
• Scott emphasizes he wasn’t trying to retrace every step, but to follow Lawson’s method of observing and documenting.
• Frames the journey as a modern transect—adding new data to Lawson’s original record.

80:00–90:00

• Scott compares Lawson’s journey to the Odyssey—both are human stories of striving and transformation.
• He sees Lawson’s journey as witnessing a pivotal cultural moment—one that led directly to conflict and Lawson’s death.
• Lawson was trusted but also complicit in colonization; Scott highlights this moral complexity.
• Draws a parallel between Lawson’s time and today—both marked by upheaval and existential uncertainty.
• Notes the reality of climate change and extinction, questioning what kind of future remains.

Scott's website: ScottHuler.com
Some of Scott's articles:
Inside the Weird and Wonderful World of Miniatures (for Esquire)
Opinion: Trump isn't just betraying the Constitution, he's betraying the Declaration of Independence ​

Willard Bascom’s Waves and Beaches first appeared in 1964 and quickly became a classic of coastal and wave science. Favored by readers who wanted to dig deeper into the physics of waves, it has stood for decades as a clear and engaging introduction to the subject.
​
But the new third edition? It wipes out. The wave science remains largely outdated, and new sections insert climate commentary that doesn’t reflect the current state of research. If you want to learn more, check out the episode. For some bonus material that didn't make the cut, read on.

​Let’s talk about a pair of figures; one from the original 1964 edition of Waves and Beaches and one from the new third edition. I will describe them, but please look below and check them out. The comparison tells you everything you need to know about the 3rd Edition.

The original figure is a classic conceptual representation of the ocean’s wave energy spectrum, first produced by Walter Munk in 1951. It’s a single continuous curve plotted against timescales from hours down to seconds. Bascom labeled each section according to the type of water wave that corresponds to that period: tides at the hour mark, wind-generated ripples at the second mark. The y-axis reads “relative amount of energy present.” This isn’t a measured spectrum, but a conceptual one, the height of line represents the relative importance of different kinds of wave motions. There’s a clear peak for swell and sea, reflecting the fact that wind waves dominate ocean surface energy in most places most of the time.

The fact that the line is continuous is conceptually important. It shows that ocean waves form a spectrum across scales. While there may be a separation in scales between ripples and tides, there is often no clear difference between wind seas and swell. The categories of wind sea and swell are just convenient labels; there are no sharp boundaries in nature. 

Now, compare this to the updated figure in the third edition. Instead of a continuous curve, we get a series of discrete bubbles. The y-axis is labeled “change in sea level,”. What does “change” even mean here? Is it absolute change, variation, or something else? The units of the y-axis are in terms of length [m]. But a wave spectrum isn’t a plot of raw heights, it’s a distribution of variance with frequency or period, and its proper units are variance density, typically [m²/Hz]. This isn’t a trivial detail, the caption still calls this a “wave spectrum,” which it clearly is not. This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what a spectrum represents.

The x-axis still represents periods with units of time (note the axis has been flipped), but now runs from fractions of a second to millennia. There are little bubbles for capillary, ripples, chop, sea, swell, etc. To me, this implies that these should be separate, discrete phenomena, which is wrong. Beyond tides, we have “seasons,” “El Niño,” "sunspot cycle" (what!?), and even a bubble labeled “industrialization.” If I’m generous, I’d interpret that last one as sea level rise from post-industrial warming, but the figure gives no explanation. In fact, since the y-axis begins with msl (mean sea level) you might assume we are talking about variations in reference to the mean sea level, but anything beyond tsunami is variations of the mean sea level. Then we have Milankovitch cycles on scales off 100k years? Even if these are periodic phenomena, they are not ocean waves (if this needs to be stated), and on these scales the ocean basins and sea levels change, rendering msl meaningless.

What was once an elegant conceptual diagram showing the continuous nature of ocean waves has been replaced with a careless hodgepodge that reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of what water waves are and what a spectrum represents.

Climate change is real, important, and worthy of serious discussion, but climate is not a wave. A book like Waves and Beaches exists to define and explain physical phenomena in the natural world with clarity and accuracy. When that mission is abandoned, when metaphor is confused with mechanism, and sloppy language replaces careful explanation, it does more than misinform. It undermines public understanding of science at a time when precision and trust matter most. That is the real failure of this new edition.

Full Transcript Here.

0:00 – 8:00

• Introduction to the episode and why this review is different from your usual positive tone.
• Waves and Beaches (1964) introduced as a classic of wave science by Willard Bascom.
• Background on its origin in Scientific American articles and the Science Study Series.
• Brief history of editions: 1st (1964), 2nd (~1980), and 3rd (2023, Patagonia).
• Praise for Bascom’s original—accessible, descriptive, and beloved for decades.
• Criticism begins: The 3rd edition feels like a picture book with little connection between text and images.

8:00 – 16:00

• Bascom’s influence: only popular-level wave science book for decades; alternatives too technical.
• Comparisons to Susan Casey’s The Wave (different audience, more surf-focused).
• Bascom’s background: mining, the Waves Project, nuclear test measurements, Project Mohole.
• His reputation as a provocative public communicator (example: waste disposal in oceans).
• Bascom’s writing as readable and poetic, a major reason for the book’s legacy.
• Questions arise: Why was McCoy chosen for this edition, and who is he?

16:00 – 24:00

• McCoy’s background: few publications, mostly in ocean instrumentation, and self-mythologizing stories.
• Criticism of the edition’s lack of updated wave science—ignores advances in spectral modeling, GPS buoys, and satellite observations.
• McCoy’s two main contributions: forced climate-change insertions and personal adventure anecdotes.
• Example of incoherent climate writing: “The wave of climate change is another very long wave…”
• Your argument: Climate science belongs, but McCoy’s treatment is shallow and confusing.
• Contrasts in tone: Bascom’s clear, textbook-like writing vs. McCoy’s tall tales and poor analogies.

24:00 – 32:00

• Extended critique of McCoy’s climate discussions as unscientific and buzzword-heavy.
• Example: “We have become part of the spectrum”—a meaningless metaphor in context.
• ENSO confusion: McCoy conflates climate oscillations with literal ocean waves.
• Exasperation at editing failures: questionable sections published without fact-checking.
• Praise for Bascom’s fieldwork descriptions: his transition from lab theory to real-world wave observation still resonates.
• McCoy’s interludes occasionally entertaining (stellar navigation story) but likely embellished.

32:00 – 40:00

• The notorious blender analogy: comparing ACE (tropical cyclone energy) to blender settings—debunked in detail.
• Discussion of climate attribution: you consult Dr. Kevin Walsh, who clarifies what science actually says about storms.
• Walsh’s insights: detection vs. attribution, observed vs. projected trends in tropical cyclones.
• Current consensus: fewer total storms, stronger intense storms, higher rainfall rates, and storm surge worsened by sea level rise.
• Critique of McCoy’s misunderstanding of basic wave physics (e.g., fetch-limited growth in cyclones).
• Beach change mischaracterized as “permanent,” which misunderstands coastal dynamics.

40:00 – 47:00

• Broader frustration: lack of curiosity and scientific rigor in McCoy’s writing.
• Humorous but telling critique of his reckless approach—likened to his free-diving story.
• Suggestion that Patagonia prioritized making a coffee-table book rather than a serious science update.
• Acknowledgment of Bascom’s enduring value—recommend reading 1st or 2nd editions instead.
• Appreciation for Bascom’s poetic lines and communication style; “go and see” highlighted as a motif.
• Closing thanks to Dr. Kevin Walsh and invitation to explore show notes and further discussion.

Helen Czerski is an Associate Professor at the Department of Mechanical Engineering at University College London and her research focus is the physics of breaking waves and bubbles at the ocean surface. Since 2011 she has presented a wide range of science documentaries for the BBC on the physics of everyday life, and atmospheric and ocean science. She currently co-hosts BBC Radio 4's flagship climate and environment show, Rare Earth. She is also a central member of the Cosmic Shambles Network. 

Helen is also a science writing hero of mine. I read and loved both Storm in a Teacup: The Physics of Everyday Life (2016) and Blue Machine: How the Ocean Shapes our World (2023).

Blue Machine in particular is a masterclass in science writing. It is epic in scope, the prose is beautiful, the tone is inviting, and it gets the science storytelling balance right: not getting bogged down in details and not flying over the important bits. 

The comparison that comes to mind is Rachael Carson's The Sea Around Us. These days, Carson is remembered for Silent Spring, which jump started the environmental movement in the United States by exposing the detrimental impact of synthetic pesticides such as DDT. But before Silent Spring, Carson wrote not one but three books about the ocean. The Sea Around Us was her oceanic magnum opus, covering all of oceanography that was known up unto the point of publication 1951, which had recently bloomed in the post-war era. This was an ambitious project pulled off with Carson’s signature panache. I see The Blue Machine as the heir to Carson's throne in this tradition. Czerski really pulled off something amazing, a book with elegant prose, ambitious scope, bubbling enthusiasm, and in the end inspirational, simply put this is oceanic storytelling at its finest.

Full Transcript

Welcome and Introducing Helen Czerski (0:00–5:00)

• I open the show from Melbourne, acknowledging the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation.
• Introduce Book Science as a podcast about how science books are written and why they matter.
• Introduce Dr. Helen Czerski — physicist, oceanographer, BBC presenter, author, and bubble expert.
• Highlight Helen’s background, from explosives physics to ocean science.
• Frame Blue Machine as a major achievement in ocean science writing — compared to Rachel Carson.
• Emphasize the book’s invitation to see the ocean as a powerful, knowable system.

Seeds of Blue Machine (5:00–10:00)

• I ask Helen about a passage in Storm in a Teacup that hints at Blue Machine.
• Helen describes the evolution of the book idea — how it developed over years of curiosity.
• Discusses physics as patterns in the world and the public’s misunderstanding of the discipline.
• Pushback against the elitism of physics — a defense of intuitive, everyday understanding.
• Framing the ocean as a life support system alongside the body and civilization.

Why Write a Book? (10:00–15:00)

• Helen reflects on why she waited until she had “something to say.”
• Critique of performative communication — the importance of contribution over attention.
• Insight into writing as thinking — the book forces deeper articulation of ideas.
• Discomfort with social media’s shallow engagement and desire to fill space without substance.
• The value of earned authority and the responsibility of taking up a reader’s time.

Structure, Storytelling, and Perspective (15:00–20:00)

• I ask Helen about the structure of Blue Machine, citing the “Russian doll” chapter on dead water.
• Helen explains her organic approach to structure — built from nested ideas.
• Emphasizes the universality of physics and the joy of finding patterns across contexts.
• Science writing as perspective-sharing, not just explanation or fact delivery.
• The goal is to leave readers with a mental model — a scaffold for future knowledge.

Curiosity, Cinematic Writing, and the Joy of Play (20:00–25:00)

• We talk about the playful, invitational tone of Helen’s writing.
• Adults are encouraged to stay curious — science is not just for children.
• Anecdote: a reader tempted to push toast off a hotel table to test physics.
• I describe Helen’s scenes as cinematic — she credits her TV work with that skill.
• Discusses Cosmic Shambles' “boring photo” advent calendar — finding wonder everywhere.

Why Books Still Matter + What’s Next (25:00–30:00)

• Helen shares her deep love for books as immersive tools for perspective transfer.
• Books are the most powerful medium for mind-to-mind communication across time.
• We discuss Cosmic Shambles as a curiosity-driven community without snobbery.
• Helen highlights the value of indigenous and non-Western perspectives on the ocean.
• Quick mentions of her BBC Radio 4 series Rare Earth, new book ideas, and summer science festivals.
• I thank Helen and encourage listeners to explore her books and online work.

What if memory wasn’t just a skill—but a superpower embedded in our genes? 

In this episode, I talk with science writer and memory expert Lynne Kelly about her remarkable new book, The Knowledge Gene. We explore the evolution of human creativity, the deep science of memory, and how ancient oral cultures used storytelling, song, and ceremony as sophisticated memory systems—long before the invention of writing. 
We discuss the genetic clues behind memory and neurodivergence, the science of mnemonic techniques like memory palaces, and how understanding these systems can reshape how we think about education, knowledge, and even what it means to be human. 

Plus: Stonehenge, songlines, memory championships, and a case for putting music and art back at the center of learning. 

​This is a wide-ranging and mind-expanding conversation. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. 

Full Transcript Here
​
00:00–05:00

• Introduction to Lynne Kelly’s work on memory and oral cultures.
• Discussion of early fascination with memory palaces and the connection between space, memory, and storytelling.

05:00–10:00

• How oral cultures embed knowledge in performance, art, song, and landscape.
• Comparison of modern and ancient memory techniques and their educational value.

10:00–15:00

• Insights into the use of mnemonic systems in Indigenous knowledge systems.
• Lynne reflects on validating Indigenous practices through research.

​15:00–20:00

• Reimagining Neolithic monuments (like Stonehenge) as memory palaces.
• The transition from mobile to agricultural societies and its implications for memory systems.

20:00–25:00

• Discussion of songlines as external memory palaces embedded in landscape.
• The fusion of place, performance, and learning in traditional knowledge systems.

25:00–30:00

• How writing displaced oral mnemonic techniques.
• The loss of embodied memory and the undervaluing of arts in modern education.

30:00–35:00

• The Knowledge Gene concept: exploring genetic roots of memory and creativity.
• Introduction to the NF1 gene and its links to neurodivergence and memory challenges.

35:00–40:00

• The evolutionary case for preserving neurodiversity in human populations.
• Discussion of ADHD, autism, and savant abilities as part of a broader cognitive spectrum.

40:00–45:00

• Lynne’s collaboration with geneticists and interdisciplinary research methods.
• The importance of embracing diverse ways of knowing and learning.

45:00–50:00

• Reflections on early human cognition and creativity predating written language.
• Discussion of embodied learning and the richness of sensory-based memory.

50:00–55:00

• How performance, art, and storytelling have been integral to knowledge transmission.
• Reframing education to re-integrate traditional memory practices and the arts.

55:00–End

• A hopeful call for the fusion of science and the arts in education.
• Lynne’s vision for reclaiming ancient knowledge systems to meet modern challenges.

Lynne Kelly's Website

The First Astronomers by Duane Hamacher
Books by Patrick Nunn: Worlds in Shadow, The Edge of Memory, etc.

In this episode of Book Science, I dive into Firmament: The Hidden Science of Weather, Climate Change, and the Air That Surrounds Us by Simon Clark. It’s a beautifully written, surprisingly compact book that unpacks the atmosphere we live in—something so ever-present and invisible that we often forget it exists at all. Clark brings both expertise and charisma to the subject: he’s a UK-based science communicator with a PhD in atmospheric physics and a popular YouTube channel. His book explores foundational concepts in atmospheric science, from Boyle’s Law to global wind patterns, and weaves in the long arc of scientific discovery—from ancient meteo-astronomers to modern climatologists. It’s the kind of book that doesn’t just explain the science but tells the story of how we came to understand it, bringing in the people, experiments, and moments of insight that shaped our knowledge of the air.

Full Transcript Here

Welcome and Why This Book (0:00–3:20)

• I introduce Firmament and explain why I chose it for this episode.
• It’s a compact, accessible book on atmospheric science.
• Simon Clark is a YouTuber and atmospheric physicist with a talent for storytelling.
• The book offers both scientific explanations and historical context.
• I frame the atmosphere as something we overlook—our invisible environment.
• A nod to David Foster Wallace’s “This is water” as a metaphor for the atmosphere.

What Is the Atmosphere, Really? (3:20–7:10)

• The atmosphere isn’t just “air” but a dynamic, structured system.
• I explain how Clark demystifies pressure, temperature, and altitude.
• Discussion of Boyle’s Law and the early experiments with air.
• Historical context: early ideas about weather and the sky.
• Clark blends physics with personal experience in a way that feels grounded.

Uncovering Patterns: From Wind to Weather (7:10–11:10)

• Clark uses chapters like “Fields,” “Trade,” and “Vortex” to explore key concepts.
• I summarize how wind patterns and the Coriolis effect shape global weather.
• Explanation of atmospheric circulation and the Hadley Cell.
• The book shows how discoveries built on one another over time.
• I highlight how Clark uses metaphors throughout.
• These chapters bridge everyday weather with deep physical principles.

Science as a Human Endeavor (11:10–14:45)

• Clark centers the people behind the discoveries—not just the data.
• I talk about the book’s attention to the history of meteorology.
• Stories of trial, error, and curiosity add depth and humanity to the science.
• There’s a strong sense of cumulative knowledge and global collaboration.
• Clark’s own voice and enthusiasm shine through without overshadowing the content.
• The ending ties back to the book’s narrative opening in a satisfying way.

Reflections and Recommendations (14:45–18:00)

• I share my personal takeaways from reading Firmament.
• It’s an ideal read for science-curious audiences—not just specialists.
• Clark’s approach is great for educators and communicators, too.
• I recommend the book as a foundation for thinking about climate change.

For this conversation, I am joined by Tessa Hill, a UC Davis professor, and Eric Simons, a writer and educator, to discuss their co-authored book, At Every Depth, that intertwines indigenous knowledge with Western science to highlight the urgency of ocean conservation amidst climate change. The book emerges from a collaborative writing process, structured to reflect varying depths of ocean familiarity, aiming to bridge the disconnect many feel towards ocean issues. 

At Every Depth emphasizes the interconnectedness of marine ecosystems through relatable human stories, making complex changes in ocean environments more accessible and tangible. Additionally, the authors spotlight the vital role of indigenous perspectives in understanding these ecosystems, advocating for a richer dialogue around ocean conservation. Inspired by pioneers like Rachel Carson and the work of historical figures such as Marie Tharp, the authors assert that it’s not too late to protect the ocean, urging communities to unite in conservation efforts and share knowledge for a sustainable future. More resources and event updates can be found at their website, ateverydepth.com.

Full Transcript Here

Notes
Introduction to "At Every Depth" (00:00 - 10:32)

• The book "At Every Depth" blends indigenous knowledge with Western science to build connection to oceans
• Central theme: "The ocean cannot tell its own story, so the story we tell about it depends on the people who get to speak"
• The book aims to help people feel connected to the ocean and inspire protection
• Book conception began around 2013-2015 during dramatic ocean changes (marine heat wave "the Blob") off California coast
• Authors wanted to "pull back the blue curtain" to show people the scale of environmental change in oceans

Co-Writing Process and Book Structure (10:32 - 20:26)

• Book written as Google Doc collaboration where authors merged into "a single writing human"
• Co-writing provided mutual support—when one author felt discouraged, the other could cheerlead
• Authors described the book as "caretaking of other people's stories" rather than their own
• Book structured from shallow to deep ocean, nearshore to offshore
• Structure follows readers' familiarity—coastlines (most familiar) to polar/deep oceans (least known)
• Depth-based organization inspired by Ed Ricketts' "Between Pacific Tides" field guide
• Authors started with magazine article to experiment with their collaborative writing process

Communicating Ocean Change (20:27 - 29:41)

• Book demonstrates how various knowledge systems can work together without conflict
• Chapters blend science topics with human stories to make ocean changes understandable
• People understand climate change on land but struggle to perceive similar changes in ocean
• Authors highlight "people who know this place extremely well" to make invisible ocean changes visible
• Example: California kelp ecosystem shows interconnected nature of ocean systems
• Marine heat waves, sea urchin proliferation, loss of sea otters all interconnected in kelp forest decline
• Authors emphasize importance of considering "three or four dominoes down" in ocean systems

Indigenous Knowledge and Understanding (29:41 - 39:36)

• Indigenous peoples often consider seas part of their country, not separate (unlike Western maps)
• Profile of Adam Dick (Indigenous leader) described as a "time capsule" of ocean knowledge
• Dick was trained in traditional knowledge while being hidden from residential schools
• Story reveals contrast between Western "discovery" and Indigenous peoples who never "lost" knowledge
• Authors highlight importance of listening and learning across knowledge systems
• Focus on partnerships and unlikely collaborations in ocean conservation
• Emphasis on asking the right questions and having the right conversations across cultures

Scientific Figures and Book's Purpose (39:36 - 50:06)

• Profile of Marie Tharp, cartographer who mapped seafloor mountain ranges in 1950s
• Tharp's work was crucial to plate tectonics theory despite barriers women faced in science
• Book inspired by Rachel Carson who used storytelling to connect people to environment
• Authors hope book will help readers feel closer to the ocean through others' stories
• Key message: "It's not too late for the ocean. In fact, it's just in time"
• Authors believe in building communities and sharing understanding as where conservation power lies
• Website available at ateverydepth.com for updates and events

Bruce Parker's book, The Power of the Sea, explores the critical role of prediction science in mitigating the impacts of natural disasters, emphasizing historical tragedies due to lack of warning. The Power of the Sea is a timely reminder that science organizations, like the NOAA in the USA, are a tremendous benefit to society. NOAA is responsible for saving thousands of lives and billions of dollars in damages through developing predictive capabilities around natural disasters. The book displays a high level expertise and comprehensive approach. Recent examples, such as Hurricane Milton, underscore the importance of federal funding for scientific research amidst the current threat to such agencies. This episode serves as a vital exploration of the intersection between policy, science, and public safety, where this little appreciated miracle of science takes center stage in The Power of the Sea. The author, Dr. Bruce Parker, knows this world because he was formerly the Chief Scientist for the National Ocean Service. ​

AMS recently sent another urgent email about the 2026 budget proposed by White House which "...eliminates NOAA's Oceanic and Atmospheric Research (OAR) Office and its 10 research laboratories and 16 affiliated Cooperative Institutes, and moves the few remaining research efforts to different NOAA departments. If enacted, the passback would close all of NOAA’s weather, climate, and ocean Laboratories and Cooperative Institutes. The speed at which these decisions are being made translates into little to no opportunity for feedback or consideration of long-term impacts." This is not fiduciary responsibility, this is pushing America towards an unsafe and unpredictable future. Maybe this is what the current administration wants, but it is not what the American people deserve. 

Full Transcript Here

Introduction to Current Events (00:00 - 02:14)

• Tripp discusses recent cuts to scientific agencies by the Trump administration in March 2025
• Over 800 people have been laid off at NOAA with building leases canceled
• American Meteorological Society released a statement warning about harm to U.S. leadership in scientific innovation
• Weather information is valued at $100 billion annually to the U.S. economy, 10x the investment
• The host argues against privatizing weather services

Book Introduction: Power of the Sea (02:15 - 04:00)

• Book is The Power of the Sea: Tsunamis, Storm Surges, Rogue Waves and Our Quest to Predict Disasters by Bruce Parker
• 304 pages published by McMillan
• Tripp discusses personal interest in ocean waves science
• Parker is a subject-matter expert, not a professional writer
• Host was particularly attentive to sections on wind waves

The Value of Prediction Science (04:01 - 08:55)

• Book presents an underappreciated scientific success story
• Historical examples: 1755 Lisbon tsunami killed 40,000 people (1/5 of population)
• 1970 Bangladesh cyclone killed 300,000-500,000 people with little warning
• Scientific prediction has drastically reduced deaths from natural disasters
• Dense coastal populations are now safer due to prediction capabilities
• Parker was formerly chief scientist at NOAA, which focuses on disaster prevention

Critique of the Book's Approach (08:56 - 13:50)

• Book sometimes reads like a 'catalog of catastrophes' without building to a larger picture
• Host critiques Parker's treatment of rogue waves as being about the anecdotes without explaining the science
• The book contains excessive footnotes that interrupt the flow, especially problematic on Kindle
• Parker conducted novel historical research on tides, visiting archives and reading correspondence
• The book focuses more on human tragedy than physics, which may appeal to general readers

Pacing and Structure Issues (13:51 - 16:25)

• Uneven pacing: two chapters on WWII wave predictions but only five pages on the next 70 years
• Book dwells on dramatic events (WWII, 2004 tsunami) with detailed eyewitness accounts
• The central thesis about prediction science saving lives sometimes feels buried
• Despite criticisms, host acknowledges the book's comprehensive and expert approach
• Parker had his wave section checked by Hendrik Tolman, developer of NOAA's wave prediction model

️ Modern Impact of Prediction Science (16:26 - 18:23)

• Recent Hurricane Milton example: despite hitting populated Florida, there were relatively few deaths
• Success attributed to publicly funded research by agencies like ONR, NSF, and NOAA
• Federal scientists (now being fired) are responsible for saving tens of thousands of lives
• We've 'forgotten what truly devastating natural disasters feel like' because prediction has eliminated surprise
• Host emphasizes the value of Parker's book in understanding the importance of this science

Why a well functioning government, which supports society, will fund science.

Why it is important to fund NOAA.

Full Transcript Here

Introduction to Duane Hamacher and Indigenous Astronomy (00:00 - 05:00)

• ​Duane Hamacher is introduced as Associate Professor of Cultural Astronomy at University of Melbourne
• Discussion focuses on Duane's book 'The First Astronomers: How Indigenous Elders Read the Stars'
• Book was co-written with Indigenous elders and knowledge holders including Ghillar Michael Anderson, John Barsa, David Bosun, Ron Day, Segar Passi, and Alo Tapim.

Genesis of the Book and Indigenous Knowledge (05:00 - 16:00)

• Duane shares how the book was 15 years in the making, starting when he came to Australia 21 years ago
• Initially faced dismissive responses when asking about Aboriginal astronomy
• Discovered significant science embedded in Aboriginal astronomical knowledge
• Worked with Torres Strait Islander elders over a decade to document their astronomical traditions
• Book required collaboration with 6 Indigenous elders as co-authors (publisher limited number of authors)
• Purpose of the book: showcase Indigenous science knowledge and preserve cultural continuity

Book Structure and Writing Process (16:00 - 25:00)

• Book not written in linear fashion - variable stars chapter written first, introduction written last
• Each chapter themed around different astronomical phenomena (most with 'star' in the title)
• Focus on science behind star knowledge rather than just naming constellations
• Book balances technical astronomy concepts with accessibility for general readers
• Duane structured narrative around three major themes: 'as above, so below,' cultural science, and reading environment for survival
• Challenge of writing trade (popular) book versus academic papers required different approach

Knowledge Systems and Scientific Observation (25:00 - 35:00)

• Indigenous knowledge systems evolve over time to adapt to changing environments
• Knowledge shared has different levels - public knowledge vs. restricted deeper knowledge
• Indigenous cultures observed variable stars (like Betelgeuse) thousands of years before Western detection
• Indigenous knowledge involves carefully reading environment including stars, animals, and weather
• Discussion of Indigenous protocols around knowledge sharing and transmitting cultural knowledge

Indigenous Scientific Observations (35:00 - 50:00)

• Example of Torres Strait Islanders predicting eclipses and planning ceremonies around them
• Aboriginal stories describe variable brightness of stars like Betelgeuse, showing sophisticated astronomical observation
• Discussion of the Seven Sisters songline (based on Pleiades star cluster) that crosses Australia
• Indigenous astronomy integrates with navigation, weather prediction, and cultural laws
• Indigenous knowledge not given credit for scientific observations that preceded Western discoveries

️ Meteorite Impacts and Cultural Stories (50:00 - 01:00:00)

• Duane shares dangerous desert experience using astronomical knowledge to navigate when lost
• Discussion of meteorite crater (Tnorala/Gosses Bluff Crater) in central Australia
• Western Arrernte people's creation story involves star baby falling from Milky Way creating crater
• Scientific dating shows crater is 142 million years old, matches Indigenous creation narrative
• Appearance of Corona Australis constellation interpreted as wooden basket falling from sky
• Book cover features artwork by Elder Segar Passi showing sunset, symbolizing when astronomy begins

Final Thoughts and Future Projects (01:00:00 - 01:09:54)

• Duane recommends other books on Indigenous knowledge, including 'Astronomy Sky Country'
• Upcoming book project: 'Welcome to Sky Country' as companion to Marcia Langton's work
• Developing university courses on cultural astronomy and Indigenous knowledge
• IAU-funded symposium 'Indigenous Astronomy in the Space Age' planned for July next year
• Duane emphasizes importance of learning from Indigenous knowledges with humility
• Resources available at aboriginalastronomy.com.au and thefirstastronomers.com

MORE LINKS:
Arctic Sky by John MacDonald
ANNETTE S. LEE | Artist-Astronomer | Indigenous | DSc | PhD | MFA | MFA